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Alegre's Corner
We're not finished folks - not by a long shot!

Who is going to turn out?

by: ghost2

Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 16:11:39 PM EST


Can NH happen one more time?  Perhaps.  Polls can be misleading.  

What happened in NH democratic primary was twofold.  Events moved very fast, and polls were slow to accurately measure the quick pace of the public mood swing.  Further, pollsters (like Rasmussen) who in fact had measured a bit of that swing, let the haka get to them, and reported their results such that the fast clip of voters moving to Hillary was further obscured.  After the primary, of course we were all subject to 'Bradley effect" bullshit, from pundits who don't know crap about anything, but like to pretend that they do.  

ghost2 :: Who is going to turn out?
I think  the problematic issue now is the likely voter model.  It's fairly hard to find cross-tabs for polls, and when I do, I note that they have very high estimates for democratic turnout vs. republican.  In other words, they assume that democrats have the edge in enthusiasm, organization, party ID, and so forth.  A reasonable assumption, but difficult to translate into numbers.  

In the primary, BTD of talkleft wrote that demographics is destiny.  In other words, voting patterns among demographics groups were remarkably stable after February.  

Now, if you look at different polls and even exit polls of past, you can say that Party ID is destiny. Rarely, a tab is so well correlated with the outcome.  Take 2006:

CNN exit poll stated that 38% of voters identified as democrats and they voted by 93% to 7% for democratic candidates; 36% identified as republicans, and they voted by 8% to 91% for republican candidates.  Independents formed 26% of voters and preferred democrats by 18% (57 to 39).  Exit poll for 2004 showed the party ID at 37-37-26 (D-R-I).

Now, Rasmussen has a likely voter model for this election which assumes a partisan breakdown of 40-33-27 (D-R-I). Say Democrats vote D by 88-10 and vice versa for republicans.  An 7 point spread in party ID gives Obama a 5.5% advantage (leaving independents out for now), whereas a 2 point spread translates to 1.5% advantage.  A HUGE difference, and one completely hidden in any poll results that become public. More important, the difference is about the same size as the MOE for the poll.  So, be ready for those after the election who cry fraud, who say how could every poll be wrong??   Yes, EVERY poll can be wrong, if they are all influenced by the same mistake in who is going to turn out this election.  

Second to party ID, I find a good indicator of an election is the preference of independents.  Take these numbers, for example, all among independents only:

2000: Gore 45% vs. Bush 47%
2004: Bush 48% vs. Kerry 49%
2006: Democrats 57% vs. Republicans 39%
2006 (VA-Sen): Webb 56% vs. Allen 44%
2006 (MO-Sen): McCaskill 51% vs. Talent 43%

Now compare these party ID's:

HOUSE: 38-36-26 (D-R-I 2006)
NOW: 40-33-27 (RAS.); 41-28-31 (CBS); 38-29-29 (ABC-WAPO)

OHIO: 40-37-23 (D-R-I 2006); NOW: 45-35-19 SUSA
VIRGINIA: 36-39-26 (D-R-I 2006); NOW: 38-36-24 SUSA.
Pennsylvania: 43-38-19 (D-R-I 2006); NOW: 49-41-10 SUSA.

All 2006 numbers are taken from CNN 2006 exit polls.

Put another way, the national party ID gap has gone from +2 to +7 (RAS), +13 (CBC), or +9 (ABC-WAPO), all in favor of D.

The state party ID gaps are gone from +3 to +12 (OHIO), -3 to +2 (VIRGINIA), and +5 to +8 (PENNSYLVANIA).

Yes, CBS national poll has a 41-28-31 R-D-I breakdown, and a 54-46 breakdown according to gender.  Any wonder that they show a 13 point lead for Obama? Remember how these polls would underestimate the women turnout in primary?? Now, they overestimate it since it suits them. On the other hand, if (a big if) you trust FOX, the party ID and enthusiasm has dramatically increased for the republicans in October.

So, my point is?  Guess a number for party ID gap, say 4%. It translates to about 3 points for D.  Add the edge among independents (say 10%, for a roughly 30% of voters=3 points).  Add the two, and Obama's margin is 6%.  You too can play this game.

Seriously, like every other recent election, this one comes down to turnout and whoever takes the independents.  

NOTE: with apologies, I am afraid the diary may turn into another venue for horse race discussions and heated exchanges.  So, I have turned off the comments.  Thanks for understanding.   Comments now open.  Please be good, and don't make Alegre kick me out!!  

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With apologies to all, (0.00 / 0)
I do not want the diary to generate into a horse race and the usual heated exchanges.  So, I have turned off the comments.  

Thanks for understanding.  


I remember (0.00 / 0)
polls being wrong a lot of the time so I bascially ignore them.

More.... (0.00 / 0)
ARG in FL:  (http://americanresearchgroup.com/pres2008/FL08.html)

45% D, 37% R, and 18% I with a 46% men and 54% women likely voter model.  Compare with CNN exit poll 2006 (remember this is the senate race with Harris on the R side!)

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/20...

36% D, 39% R, 25% I, with a 48% to 52% male to female ratio of voters.

I think we may have a few shockers on the election night.  


I just posted this (0.00 / 0)
comment.

sorry Edgar, (0.00 / 0)
I sort of changed my mind, and opened the comments.  IT's been good so far.  

[ Parent ]
No biggy (0.00 / 0)
I didn't know you could turn off comments.  I wanted to see what would happen if I tried.

Great diary by the way.  I think the candidate wars stuff is over and done with.  Alegre's right, our work starts Nov. 5th.

People see an Obama victory as a legitimization of his brand of politics.  It won't happen that way.  Bush won.  His brand of politics was never legitimized by an electoral victory.  but ended up decimated by his own incompetence/willful disregard for the American People.


[ Parent ]
Who's going to turn out? ME! (0.00 / 0)
And this woman will not be voting for Obama.  Oh, neither will my husband.

So our poll says Obama 0 - McCain....(well, that's for us to know and for nobody else to find out!  I own my own vote!)

NObama - ever.

HILLARY 2012


"Always aim high, work hard, and care deeply about what you believe in. When you stumble, keep faith. When you?re knocked down, get right back up. And NEVER listen to anyone who says you can't or shouldn't go on."
Hillary Clinton - June 7, 2008

Hillary Clinton
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